True to Yourself

030: Suicide Prevention Through Stories: How One Mother Transformed Grief into a Mission to Save Lives with Sally Raymond

• ananta.one • Episode 30

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What are the warning signs about suicide that even loving, attentive parents miss?

At 82 years young, psychotherapist Sally Raymond shares her extraordinary journey from devastating loss to life-saving mission. After losing her brilliant 23-year-old son to suicide, Sally spent 28 years uncovering the truth about what she missed—and transforming that wisdom into hope for others.

In this episode, you'll discover:

  • Warning signs about suicide parents, teachers and loved ones often overlook
  • Suicide prevention quotes and wisdom that offer actionable guidance
  • How to help with suicide ideation with emotional resilience and conscious parenting
  • Healing the throat chakra: Finding your authentic voice after trauma and loss
  • The power of silence as a path to spiritual growth and self-discovery
  • Hero's journey therapy approach to transforming tragedy into purpose
  • Real stories about suicide that illuminate the path to prevention and survival
  • Suicide prevention training insights from Sally's 29,000+ therapy sessions with 0 losses
  • Why it's never too late to reinvent yourself and live with purpose at any age

Resources mentioned: Sally's book: The Son I Knew Too Late: A Guide to Help You Survive and Thrive (https://a.co/d/eW6bWFi) Books for spiritual growth, throat chakra healing practices, suicide prevention national resources

Perfect for suicide survivors, parents, educators, therapists and anyone seeking to build emotional resilience and prevent loss.

About Sally:

Sally Raymond is a living embodiment of resilience, purpose and love in action. At 82, her light shines brighter than ever. A psychotherapist, mother, author and truth-teller, she has walked through the deepest valley of loss to emerge with a voice that uplifts others. Through Become the Hero of Your Own Journey (https://theancientway.co/hero), Sally deepened her connection to the power of silence — discovering how true strength arises not from doing more, but from listening within.

Her book, The Son I Knew Too Late, transforms her personal tragedy into a mission to help parents, teachers, and youth build emotional resilience

Resources:

Begin with Wisdom: The Way of the Goddess Book
“I very highly recommend it... I think anyone can benefit from its wisdom." Dr. Deepak Chopra: a.co/crHf7Wm

Get Grounded: Free Living Liberated Newsletter
Rituals and inspiration to stay steady and radiant in your purpose: theancientway.kit.com

Know Yourself: Free Chakra Healing Guide
Discover where your energy flows and where it’s blocked with actionable insight: chakrahealingguide.com

Heal Your Gut: Free Digestion Healing Guide
theancientway.kit.com/digestive-healing

Give from a Full Cup: Circle of Life Community
Grow alongside fellow givers: theancientway.co/community

Journey Deeper: Book a Free Discovery Call
calendly.com/anantaripa/discovery-call

Disclaimer: Resources are for educational and spiritual growth purposes only and are not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Please consult your healthcare provider for medical conce...

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Namaste and welcome back to the True to Yourself podcast. I am your host, Anantha Refa Ajimera, and today I am really thrilled to be joined by a very special soul named Sally Raymond. Sally is a living embodiment of resilience, purpose, and love in action. At 82 years young, her light shines brighter than ever. A psychotherapist, mother, author, and truth teller, she has walked through the deepest valley of loss to emerge with a voice that uplifts others. Through Become the Hero of Your Own Journey, an eight-week program I lead to support people to really anchor their hero's journey. Sally has deepened her connection to the power of silence, discovering that true strength arises not from doing more, but from actually listening deep within. Her amazing book, The Son I Knew Too Late, a guide to help you survive and thrive, transforms her personal tragedy into a mission to help parents, teachers, and youth build emotional resilience and prevent suicide with honesty, compassion, and grace. Sally has been on a profound journey of reclaiming her authentic voice, transforming grief into wisdom, and is living proof that it is never too late to give birth to your soul's fullest expression. Sally, you've lived such a rich and meaningful life. What inspired you to join become the hero of your own journey at this stage of your life? That's a great question.

Sally Raymond:

And Anta, thank you for that incredible introduction. I can't possibly live up to. I believe everything is given for you to grow. And a lot of people don't get that. And they feel that they are being attacked, victimized, punished when they're just being given, they're being shaped to find their way. And the shaping is what happens. And we don't trust that process. And I think that it causes a lot of you know unnecessary disturbance in the field of life. And I think that and with my own son, I think that became very apparent that that's what happened to him many different ways. And I had to find out the hardest way possible after he was gone what I missed. And I will never stop learning now because I died with him. The mother I was, the person I was, utterly died with him because he was the one who had created me. I bore I bore him, but then he taught me and forced me to grow in ways that I never ever in this world would have done without him. And in some way, he was sort of preparing me for something. And when his loss came, I I flatlined. I didn't, it was like the magic etch a sketch raised, and there was nothing left. And I had to start over. And I am no longer that person. I don't feel that at all. I hope not, because she was not smart. I'm not a pre I'm not a fan of hers at all. But I really had a lot to learn, and I I feel like looking for the truth that took him to suicide helped me find a new self, a new mission, and a path. And at this point, I feel like we're all on a hero's journey. And I think that we are given that at birth. But I don't think many people realize that for a long, long time if they ever do. But I had to, and now I know there's only learning, there's only growth, there's only opportunity. And I am really dedicated to doing all I can at this age because I don't know how long I'll have to make as much difference as I can before I croak. And that's that's truly what I'm about. I don't care about the bunny. I I God never made money, He made you and me. And that's the goal. That's the purity. That's and we're we're endless souls at this point, I believe. And we've always been on this journey, so why not be on it consciously? That makes sense. Yeah, wow. Whenever I get an opportunity, like you know, here's this opportunity to join this this webinar and you know, finding your soul's purpose and living a courageous life, I'm gonna say yes, because I want that. I want all the help I can get, and I want to really fully, you know, make my life as meaningful and rich and useful to people as I can. And it's not about me, but it's about the the the journey.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

And how do the program's themes of courage, healing, and self-discovery speak to where you are in your personal and spiritual evolution?

Sally Raymond:

It's their core issues. Those are the core issues that keep unfolding me. And I need, I love the camaraderie, I love the leadership because everyone's a teacher. And you most of all, Ananda, you're absolutely phenomenal. And so knowing you and feeling your integrity and your authenticity and your your your absolute dedication to learning and growth yourself and to passing that forward. I feel just such a commonality there that it's like I cannot not join because you know you're not fraudulent in any way. You are a hundred percent who you are, and it's a beautiful thing, and your light shines so strong. I want to just join that light.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Wow, thank you so much. That was so special to have you as a part of the journey. I think everyone in the cohort was always in awe of everything that you shared. It felt like when you spoke, you had such conviction and such clarity that I feel has really been birthed in the laboratory of silence. And I feel like of all the themes that we explored on the journey, the theme of the voice and the power of speech as well as silence, which happens to be connected on the hero's journey of the way of the goddess book to the biological mother, goddess as Skandamatha, just felt like you. And that's why I really wanted to have you be our interviewer, interviewee for this particular stage of the journey. And I wanted to ask you before embarking on this journey, how did you experience your own voice? And how has that relationship evolved?

Sally Raymond:

Well, that's uh that that takes me through 82 years. When I was a very little child, I was born into two families, but my father's side, which went back to the Mayflower, and they were Quakers and very quiet and kind and thoughtful people and boring. When you compare them to my other side, which were the Italians, who are brilliant, witty, and absolutely um scintillating. And they they uh you know, it was I I I kind of embody both now, you know, but I was always drawn to the Italians because they were always having the greatest time with each other, and they it was rollicking great time that was just like you never saw so much, you know, banter back and forth that was so witty and brilliant. And I used to just I was silent, I was totally silent. I didn't have a voice, I didn't know who I was. I but I sat in awe watching those people play poker until the wee hours of the night, and I would just be in awe watching the dynamics, thinking, how did they, you know, how does that happen? I mean, how and I had no words, but I was listening and I really was soaking it all up and I was just enjoying it at so many levels, you know. But I wasn't, I didn't have any, I didn't have any, I didn't have any presence there. They were completely happy with each other the way they were, and children at that time were to be seen and not heard, and so I I wasn't heard, and I had no, I didn't know what to say. I didn't think I had anything to say, but I kept looking around me, and all I I live, I grew up in Santa Barbara, about three blocks from the beach, and I had the mountains about five minutes away, and I had the beach about 10, 15 minutes, 20 minutes away, and I remember being two years old and thinking, I'm in paradise, and I had a wonderful Italian mom who was just really there for me, and we I had all this beauty around me, and I when I go to the beach, I would just lay on the beach and think, how can I give back to all this beauty? And I couldn't, I mean, I thought about it for years. I thought about that question, and I had no per I had no self, I had no idea who I was or what I was about. I had no idea if I if I could ever matter to anything, but I really wanted to give back to all the beauty, and I wanted to make you know my life count in some way, but I was completely silent. People say I was silent until I was 30. And and when I had children, you have to become a mom, you have to become a person, you have to have an identity. And I developed all that and I became okay. And but my initial my initiation was truly as an introvert. But I over time I became more of an extrovert. But when my son committed suicide at 23, I went silent again. I was gone. And that's when I started learning again and deepening and listening far beyond just the five senses. And and looking for him too, which was part of it was you know, I couldn't accept his his his loss. So I never could say goodbye. So I kept seeking him in different ways, and he showed up. He has shown up a million different ways for me, and I don't care if people think I'm nuts or not, because it's my life, it's what I want to do with it. And to me, there's an I've taken seven statistics courses, and none of the things that have happened could have happened by random chance. So I feel like I've you know, and he but I've been learning that there's so much more than I knew that was obvious, and that there's a path there, and I want to be on that path because I feel it brings me closer to him and it bring brings me closer to who I am too, fully, truly, and I'm open to letting go of all the other selves and everything else to continue to find out more about who he is, who I am, who what life is, what everything is, and so silence is absolutely key to that because if you're talking, you're not listening, and listening is where you learn and you become and you think and you can go deep, but you can't do it when you're just spewing away. That's just that's not fit, but I can do that too. But listening is is really the goal, and that's why I'm a counselor. I've had 29,000 sessions to date, and uh I've lost no one to suicide, and I know I would have saved my son had I only known, and that's something that motivates me and will motivate me forever.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Beautiful, beautiful. How has the practice of silence and stillness and inner listening helped you to integrate the deep grief, the love, and the purpose that you embody?

Sally Raymond:

Well, if you're very silent and you're really in a in a hole where everything you thought you knew has shattered. There are nothing, there's nothing holding you from knowing there's so much more. But it takes it takes a lot to break the bonds that we innocently put on ourselves as we grow thinking this is this, this is that, this is the other thing. But when something profound happens and it's gone, and you're alone in the universe, and you're shattered, it absolutely, in a way, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Because then I realized I've been living an illusion, which my son's suicide had absolutely proven without a doubt that I had completely missed his pain growing up, and to the point where he he did that, and that was intolerable, and so his loss was what spurred me into seeking deeply what was true for myself, who I am, really, what the truth is really, and as I did, miracles would occur that would let me know that I was on a path. And I mean the miracles kept me going, and they still do, but I recognize the miracles I think a lot of people wouldn't. But that's because I had to lose it all, I had to lose everything, and that was incredibly painful, but it was also, I feel at this point, incredibly necessary for my own personal growth, and what I've learned is so very rich. I know that if I could have my son back, I would in a heartbeat, but I don't want to sacrifice all I've learned through his life and his loss because I think I only really began to live after he died authentically. So, in a way, he's still my teacher, and he's not gone, and that's an enormous comfort for me, and I truly believe that with my heart and soul, and that means if he's not gone, that means nobody's gone, and that also means we're eternal beings, and so he's taught me that from beyond the avail in ways that are pretty indelible for me, and I've got the stories to prove it, and he helped me, you know, write I I had to write a book about what I had to learn the hardest way, and that took 28 years because every time I learned something new, I went into a horrific grief process that would just take me out for months and months, and I couldn't bear to come back to the work until I was able to. And every time though, it really opened my eyes to more and more and more, and the book kind of became an odyssey of my for myself. I mean, I it taught me what needed to happen, and I happened to get the most incredible editor on earth who was so so very dedicated to the book that she even when I was in the hospital and I couldn't walk and I may not ever walk again, she was like, We're finishing this book. So she wasn't letting me off the hook in in the hospital bedroom. And I really that meant the world to me that somebody felt that kind of you know importance that that that this is an important journey, and anyway, I but she was truly an angel. And I like I said, you know, I I see angels now a lot. I mean, John was certainly an angel, I see you as an angel. I see angels everywhere, but a lot of people don't, which I feel is sad because they're here.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

It takes one to know one.

Sally Raymond:

Oh I have it, I'm working on it.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

All of us are angels in progress, right? So, Sally, can you talk a little bit about how you continue to feel your beloved son John's presence and guidance in your life and work today?

Sally Raymond:

Well, everything I do, I feel, is somehow connected to him. And um, I did spend years and years trying to find because I'd just become a psychotherapist licensed when he killed himself. So I just had the tools and training I'd never had as a mom, and that most moms never have to possibly find out what I missed, and that was something I couldn't not do. I had to find out what I missed, and there was nothing that was going to stop me. And as I did, I learned that all the stories that that took him from superstar to suicide are alive, they didn't die with him, they're all happening in similar forms to young people today and older people, and they're doing the same thing to them as they did to him, and that's when I really realized I had a mission, is that I couldn't just tell John's story. That's just like a bear in the woods story. So what? There's bears in the woods. But if I could tell the story in a way that would help other people know better and be conscious of what they're doing or not doing, that either is going to work for or against their own well-being and their own progress in life and their children's, then I thought that would be worth worth worth writing. And so I was I used his stories at every age so people could connect to him emotionally and also see the parallels between them and him, and then apply what the the education part at the end about what works, what doesn't work, the core issue at every age, and then be able to apply that to their own lives and those of the their loved ones in ways that they'd give them much more conscious control over whether their life would stay meaningful and rich and hopeful, or fall into despair, hopelessness, bitterness, resentment, and loss. So that became a mission. And as I went through that, after I wrote it, many other things happened, and I've kept learning more and more things that you wouldn't have to learn unless you'd had some major loss and you had to somehow make sense of it. And so what has happened is that the book is you know has lots to teach, but afterwards I've also seen how people in society are innocently doing and not doing things that are creating the milieu we're seeing now, where people are split from each other, divided, hateful, uh, you know, and it's we're we're attacking each other. And I consider this societal suicide. It's never going to work for the the the betterment of our society. We've lost the gloop. And so that's what I feel like I'm my purpose is at this point is talking about the lost glue and how all the different ways that happened, and then bringing bringing back more consciousness and control over that so that we can turn that around. And that's it's just but I've had like I said, he shows up, he shows up, and the stories are are amazing, and I feel I go to the grave every twice a year on his birthday and death day, and every year it's an appointment. I have to tell him what I've done, and I have to ask him for help in moving forward and knowing my path forward. So I'm really seriously, he's he's part of my life, and you know, so I he's my teacher, he's my trainer, he's my touchstone, and he's the motivation that keeps me going. So I don't know if I've answered the question, but I sure talked a lot.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

When I hear the word humility, you are actually what I think of. Because to me, you just are the embodiment of that word in every shape and facet of its meaning. You are someone who is constantly open to learning, to growing, and to not being afraid to go into these deep dark places to own what most people would run terrified away from. And it just always puts me in a state of awe just to hear you speak about this so openly, hear your passion for helping others to not have to go through what you went through and to feel that purity of your soul and how this process of loss has actually led to the birth of something greater than even you and him, and how he continues to live within that. It's really quite quite astounding.

Sally Raymond:

Well, it isn't really. I mean, honestly, if you lost use, if you've lost your son, a brilliant son, not a just an hour, you know, just and nobody's average, nobody's anything, but John was incredible. And when you blow it that bad, I don't know how to have an ego over that ever again. And I think ego is you know the enemy to learning and growth. Because if you think you know or you think you're right, you're dead, you might as well be dead because you've you flatlined yourself, you've just decided that you have everything you know, and there's no there's no more growth, right? And I'm sorry, but that's not going to be me. And so, you know, I was decimated. I lost my everything I knew about myself, and everything I knew about life died with John. There was no me without him. I mean, he was in me when I was in my my mother in in her womb. I he was inside me as one of the the little proto-cells that ended up becoming fertilizer. One out of seven million that actually made it all the way out to be fertilized and grow and become. And he, I've never, I he would, there was never a me without him and so who am I now? I don't know. I'm just you know, so it it it it just raised me to the the the nth degree and so my ego is gone for for better or worse. Way better. I I feel that you know when you when you have some catastrophic loss like that, it does humble you, and then you're open. And so that's the gift that there's always an equal opposite gift to everything if you so choose to leave yourself open to that and to see that everything nothing is one thing or another, it's all but that keeps me on the quest.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Wow. So, what message do you feel John would want to share through you with other parents or young people who are struggling right now? No, I it's hard to speak for John.

Sally Raymond:

He he was he was very opinionated. He constantly challenged everything I said. I mean, when you when he was, I think he was six years old and he was giving me 45 minutes on why he didn't need to make his bed and he was winning. You know, and I'm a single parent, and I'm like, I'm losing my credibility. It's gonna be gone, and what am I gonna do? Because he's gonna get older and smarter and it's gonna, it's like it's not a gonna be a pretty picture, and so that's when I had to go back to school, and I was a C student in high school, and I I married a man who was even stupider than I was. I never saw him in school ever until I hit bowling in city college, and that I realized now it was it was a tell that was a telling moment. I didn't pick it up for a long time. So having a brilliant kid, I mean, he was reading it two years old, and I was like, oh no, I can't deal with this. My husband can't deal with this. What's gonna happen? And so I went back to school and I got a and I I went back, I was working full-time and I got an A plus and a B plus. And I was so excited because I'd never gotten an A plus in my life. I was a C student, and I came home, I was so excited. I told and my son was out, and John was there, and I said, You won't believe what I got. And he said, What did you get? And I said, I thought I got an A plus and a B plus. And he looked at me like I died, and he went, You got a B. And he ended up singing and dancing around the coffee table while I was in the fetal position on the couch, singing, Mom is a bee, mom is a bee. And I was like, I'm not. I was like, he just absolutely humiliated me. And so I couldn't let him do that to me again. So I ended up with highest honors at UCSB only because I was afraid of his another negative evaluation of me. So I don't know what he'd say about who I am or what he wants me to say. I mean, he became a theoretical mathematician at 16, and he was in Carnegie Mellon. And all I know is that I don't understand mathematical language at all. But I know that the only sentence that made any sense to me in his master's thesis, it was his title. It was the continuity of waveform in space in one dimension. And he proved it. So I think I mean it's all a bunch of squiggles. Every so often there's a thus or of or so therefore, but everything is squiggles. But I think he proved we continued before he died. And I think that's something that was pretty profound for me when I saw that. And so I think he would say, This isn't the end.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

I love that. Everything you're saying is so meaningful. The name Ananta that I have is actually a spiritual name I received based on my own spiritual journey. And in Sanskrit, it means eternal without end.

Sally Raymond:

Well, I think that's the truth of all of us. Yeah, I really do. And I mean, the gifts of our ancestors live on in us. The only meaning our ancestors have is that we're here now, you know, and yet they're always part of the wave of life. The wave never ends, even though it flattens out over time, it's still there, it's still effective, it's still meaningful. And I really believe that you know, we're just part of that wave and it's rolling on and on and on. And I don't think there's an end to the wave. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I want to be a part of that particle, I want to be a conscious part of that particle, and I don't want to deny anything because the the downs of the wave are just as important as the highs, even more important because the highs are just where you enjoy the ride. But when it goes and it drops and it's hard and it's dark and it's royal and chaotic, that's when we have to equip ourselves from the inside out, and so it's not a bad thing, it's a necessary thing, it's part of the growth, it's part of the wave giving us the resilience and the the the also the path forward because it's pushing us forward, as even the downs are pushing us forward, and I don't believe anything is given to us that isn't something that can help us if we so choose to see it, because whether you think you can or you think you can, this is a quote from somebody, I don't know who it is, but whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right. So whatever you believe is going to be what will accrue to you. So if you think you can, no matter what happens to you, you'll look for the through way, and it will equip you, it will grow you. If it will it will make you feel more resilient, more more resourced and empowered. And and I don't think anything is trying to erode us. I think it's all trying to grow us. But I think a lot of people look at negative things that happen to them and go, oh gosh, we're that was so horrible, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they don't see the positive benefits. And I feel that's a really that's a terrible thing. So as a therapist, I'm always trying to, you know, help that, you know, that balance be struck so that they can not only feel the pain, but also realize there's a there's an education here. So yeah. But anyway, the wave is really important. So when my son wrote about that wave in one dimension, I think he was on to something.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Yeah, I remember when I received this name, I was so excited to reflect on all the many meanings of it, and it felt that it has infinite meanings while it means infinite itself. And you have just added more to that list of unfolding of what this me name actually means and the journey that we're on, and a very unique way of expressing it through John's contribution. So that's really, really beautiful. John was an incredible teacher, he really was. And the book that you wrote, you're offering to the world, The Son I Knew Too Late, is such a brave and necessary contribution to our world. What would you say was the most healing part of writing it for you?

Sally Raymond:

Well, there was a great amount of pain, took an enormous amount of time, I spent on an enormous amount of money. But I think for me, completing it and getting it out there in a way that I feel was resonant and useful for people, and getting the reviews on Amazon afterwards has just it just absolutely flat floors me every time because people there's people who really get this, and they see what you know the utility of it, and they see that it's helping. And that means the world to me because that means John is still current, he's still here. I've reinvented him again, I rebirthed him in a new way, but not as he would have done, but as I could do in a way that would help other people know better than we did, and uh have more resources at their control to be able to overcome any adversity whatsoever and not take it out on themselves and not somehow think this is never gonna end. Of course it's gonna end. Everything in life is short term, it's only death that's permanent. So, you know, it really has been an incredible journey and honor to finally have it out. A lot of uh there was one young man I was working with and was live who was living with me at the time when I was writing my book, and he was a he was working on his PhD and he was a double major in theoretical math and electrical engineering, and he was from Munich, Germany. He was very German and he was very, very on it what he was doing. And he kept saying, you know, you're never gonna finish that book. And I'd be less I will, and no, you won't, you're never gonna finish it. And every week he'd say how many pages, you know, and I'd tell him and he'd go, eh, you know. And he he he was a renter and he left the house years about four years later, or whatever. And when I finished the book, I wrote to him and I said, I finished. And he can't immediately wrote back going, really. Three days later, I mean, he was in by that time, he was in Zurich, and he was in Einstein's seat. He had been given Einstein's seat.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Wow.

Sally Raymond:

And three days later, I was getting ready to go to get go take a shower. I look like the wrath of God, and there was a knock on my door, and I went, Oh my god, did I forget a client or something? And oh my god, and I went to the door and it was him. Oh wow, it flown all the way from Zurich. He said, Let me see this book. So I brought out the manuscript and he was weighing it, and he was looking at how many pages, and he finally said, Well done. And that was quite.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Yeah, warning to readers, though, you will cry when you read this book. You will laugh too. You will laugh, you'll feel your whole range of emotions. So just be ready for them. The the benefit of silence also is that it gives us space to finally feel all those emotions that are waiting for us to simply acknowledge them and then to embrace and accept them, and to finally be able to release the ones that no longer are serving us, but are there to teach us, so there to teach, they're not to hurt us, you know.

Sally Raymond:

And when you cry, you are recognizing truth. Yeah, you are recognizing a truth, and you're recognizing you know, because and that's that's increasing your sense of humanity for yourself and everyone else. And so please cry, please lie, please have the whole range because we need that, we need all of it. It's the people who've numbed out who are zombies, you know, they're just they're robots, they don't even know what they're doing, and they have it all justified, it's all up here, justified, it's not here because that heart would never do that, but they're out of touch with that, they've they've lost so much, and and that's happening all over. And I really want to help people feel, and because feeling is what seeds learning when something is emotionally resonant to you, you'll you'll get them, you'll get the information about what to do, and you'll remember it and be able to use it, but not if you don't feel. Then you're listening to a talking head, and that's all there is, and it's gonna go right through two years and out.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Yeah, I mean, you've included such poignant stories from your personal journey and life that just really, really hats off to you for having the courage to be able to commit this all to writing to outlive you and John and this whole, you know, story that you've been writing as the hero really of your own journey. And I know this might be a hard question to answer, but Sally, if John could read this book today, what do you think he would say?

Sally Raymond:

I think he'd probably say, knowing John, you missed a whole lot. Oh jeez. I truly believe he would, but I also think he'd be, I think that he would probably be very happy inside that I did this, but I don't think I I think he would be like, you know, you could have you could have you just missed so much.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

What's I really believe that he was he's keeping you at a plus level by uh demanding nothing less continually all your life, basically. Gonna change. I mean those childhood memories of him will never leave you, clearly.

Sally Raymond:

No, he he was he was he was you know, he was very hard on people who weren't excellent, and that he was hard on himself too, obviously.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Obviously, yeah, yeah. But honestly, I feel Sally, like just as a reader and someone who knows you and your journey pretty well in a relatively short period of time that we've actually known each other, but I'm sure our souls go way back. That I just feel him feeling his heart and feeling finally seen and understood, and that he was finally heard, and he his soul feels very relieved that you wrote this.

Sally Raymond:

And I I yeah, I that would be the ultimate for me if that were true. I don't have any guarantee of that, but I do believe, I hope that he knows now that I loved him. You know, because he he was hard on me. I mean, he was one of those kids that you know was gonna sit there and question every single word you said, you know. And it's it's hard to live with that, you know. You're what about this? What about you know, and it's it was he was right. I mean, he was you know pushing, he was he was that was what he was doing, that was his role, and you know, and I remember when his he was in he was with his father and stepmother two weeks a year, but they never could make it the whole time. But one time he was there and he was about 10, I think, and I got a call from my ex-husband, which was very unusual. And he said, We have to put John in military school. And I said, Why? He said, He's questioning me, and I said, Right, but what is he doing wrong? And my husband and my ex was like, Don't you understand English? I just told you he's questioning me. And I said, I got that, but I said, What is he doing wrong? And he said, You must be the stupidest woman on the planet, and and I said, Well, is he doing anything illegal? And he said, No. I said, Is he doing badly in school? No, is he being cruel to people in in in in the world? And he went, no, and I said, So, why would you put a perfectly good kid in military school? And he yelled at me because he's questioning me, and I was really mad by that point, and I just yelled back, so answer the questions and hung up on it, he would have put him in military school for being in, you know, being a curious, intellectual, brilliant guy who was going to question everything, but he would have punished that. And how many parents punish intellectual curiosity and don't let you grow, put a ceiling on you where you can't grow, you can't become, and that just permutes you in all kinds of different ways and destroys what could be.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Totally. Yeah, I loved so much how Swami Parthasarthi, the founder of Vedanta Academy, who has taught Vedanta knowledge verse by verse for decades. He's actually older than you by more than a decade. He's I think 96 years young or 98 years young or something really up there. He is amazing. He's played cricket with kids in their 20s at the academy into his 80s, and he wrote this incredible book called Vedanta Treatise, which is really an overview of the main concepts of the spiritual science of Vedanta and its universal spiritual philosophy. He wanted to do this in a way that helps young people, especially to develop their intellect, which is different than intelligence. Intelligence is really the information you get from other people, from schools, from institutions, from spiritual, religious teachers, parents, etc. And the intellect is something altogether different. The intellect is the ability to actually reason, to judge, to discern, to make decisions in life. And it is also the part of us that will be able to rise above the mind and all of its emotions and feelings to actually look more objectively at everything in our life and to be the master of our mind rather than at the mercy of our mind. What he says to develop the intellect, though he has a three-year program to allow this process to unfold, it's actually very simple. There's two practices that he strongly recommends every spiritual seeker to constantly do to awaken the intellect. And one is simply to question everything, and two is to never take anything for granted. And he talks a lot in his book actually about how a lot of religious and spiritual leaders, in the name of Vedanta, in the name of spirituality, are actually really like taking control of young minds and manipulating and controlling them. I had actually been exposed to these types of teachers in my own journey of learning this knowledge that I now have liberated my own voice in order to be able to share and to, you know, continue to learn as I do so. And honestly, reading that book and reading him talking about this very thing was like a hallelujah moment. Like, wow, finally, someone understands in such a succinct way what I went through and what the path was to come out of that. And I'll never forget that because it's just so simple. And there is a certain amount of repetition that you would bring that up, you know, many times in the course of the study, but you really remember it and it really gives back that permission to be like a child. And you always say that children are our teachers and that we are meant to be the leaders of the parents and the grandparents and all the ancestors who have come before us. And I feel that children have that curiosity still awake within them. And it's so important for us to give ourselves that permission to continue to do that for as long as we live, because taking things for granted is unfortunately the norm, and not questioning things is just what people do, and that's what allows so much suffering to keep perpetuating.

Sally Raymond:

So and I I see that I see that also as a form of the patriarchal model, which I think it you know it has a ceiling, you can't rise above the patriarch, right? Don't you don't question the patriarch. You do not, you you, you, but you're you serve the patriarch, but you can't rise above, you can't threaten it, you can't do anything like that. And I was raised, my mom and dad raised me even though they were separated in an egalitarian model where I was treated as an adult, even as a child, even though I was inarticulate and I didn't talk much, I read voraciously, and they gave me books that a five-year-old should never get, like, you know, from Galileo to the nuclear age. And I read it, you know. I mean, I had to have the dictionary by my side for three years, but I did it. And, you know, and I learned about all kinds of things that most little girls would never know. And they didn't treat me as a girl or a guy, they treated me as you know, a person with complete capacity, and I really appreciate that because I feel like they freed me to be who I am. You know, they didn't have any ceiling. They were just like, here, go for it. You can do this, you can do that, you can do anything. And I feel that it's really sad to see when I see children being groomed to be less than what they are and fit a mold that is historic ancient mold that is no longer useful. That's limiting what could be instead of promoting what could be.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Totally, totally. Yeah, and so now that you're 82 years young, how does it feel to be expressing yourself finally in such a powerful new way through your book, your voice, and your mission?

Sally Raymond:

Well, I don't feel time. I don't I don't accept time, I think it's an illusion.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Yeah, that's what we believe in Vedanta, also that time and space are are just illusions in the mind, and that we are timeless, eternal beings, and you really embody that.

Sally Raymond:

Well, I just don't think there's anything I can't do if I want, and I now I feel like I'm more I have more options and more power than ever. And I I never felt disempowered, but I never felt empowered, I think. But I really feel like this whole path has been such an incredible teacher. I've suffered a lot, I continue to suffer a lot, but their growth, it's all about personal growth. There's no growth, there's no growth without suffering. So suffering is required for growth, and if you take it that way, it's not suffering anymore. And that that's what frees you from pain. That frees you from a lot of the shibbolus we end up believing in, you know, completely erroneously, that limit us and make us smaller than we ever should be. We are we are limitless beings, and I'm feeling right now that I just have another, at least another career ahead of me. I don't know what exactly it is, but I think it's really going to be worth the living. And I just haven't decided, I don't feel old, I don't feel any of that. And I I think I told you I just came back from Europe where I drove 600 miles alone by myself in the mountains of Italy and wow in the dark without understanding Italian and not understanding the signage, and I still got to where I was going, even though I made a lot of wrong wrong turns, but I never went off a cliff, and that could have happened a hundred thousand times. So I felt and I found miracles happened. I mean, it was just an enormous thing. But to find out that I could make it and get to my destination every time, and no matter what happened, I could, I could, I could succeed in that was an incredible discovery that I had to put my own life on the line to find out.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Okay, that is something that I wouldn't have never done at any age, and I probably will never do at any age. So that is definitely very uniquely your own adventure through life.

Sally Raymond:

I've also, you know, I think you know, I've I've also uh loved going swimming with wild dolphins, you know, and a lot of girls wouldn't, a lot of people wouldn't do that.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Yeah, that's awesome. That's that's really inspiring.

Sally Raymond:

Well, there've been uh great lessons they've taught me. I've got great lessons from the the dolphins, and uh it's just amazing. And I've gone I've gone galloping through Monument Valley with the uh with the Navajo Indians and on an overnight, and and that was fantastic to feel like you're part of a war party and just you know, flying through over ravines and no no trails, just going. And it's it's it's exciting, it's it's a it's so present, it's so conscious, it's so full of life energy, you know, that even though you're in incredible mortal danger the whole time, it's worth it because you know, without risk, there's there isn't any life. And so I have taken risks over my lifetime, and I'm darn glad I did.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Wow. Wow, it's it's so inspiring always to hear about your courage and your just absolute love of life. You would never think that a person who's wrote a book with such a kind of heavy title as The Son I Knew Too Late would actually be such a joyful, effervescent human being who genuinely, deeply, truly still totally loves life. And that makes me wonder what wisdom would you offer to others of any age who are afraid perhaps to take risks or to start something new, to heal themselves, or to finally go into the silence to emerge speaking their truth.

Sally Raymond:

What have you got to lose? You know, I I believe the biggest risk is not to take one. I think if you had any idea that even one cell of your body in the universe being here right now is zero. Yet you are made of the star stuff of exploding supernovas. That's your chemistry. So all every single atom of you, every single cell of you has that kind of atomic power that is here despite all probability of being here. So when you look in the mirror, if you see that, you're seeing the truth. And the probability is what creates risk. I mean, we look at probability, and the more probability, the less probability, the more risk. Well, the fact that you're here, fashioned as you are, with muscles and hair and brain and bone and skeleton, and then add life to that equation, you've already taken the biggest risk and won the biggest, the biggest ever gift. And that's always gonna be true for you. So live it. Live it and be true to yourself and find out who you really are. And you're gonna find out you're limitless. And if you look at everything as a positive, as a benefit, what did I get out of this instead of how awful this was? You're gonna be the winner. And you will keep growing and you'll be free to be fully who you are.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

If you could leave one message to all who read your words or hear your voice, what would it be?

Sally Raymond:

I I think I would say what my friend that my the guy who kept giving me a hard time about my book that it wasn't in house, the guy was saying he'll never finish that book. He was the smartest guy I've ever met. That's why he's in an Einstein seat now. And at one point he he Was we were talking and he said, You know, I'm not that smart. But he said, I am unusually determined. And I think that's what success is. I think it's all about just staying determined, staying on your path, following through with what you believe in, and continuing to do that with everything you do. You know, follow the path and don't give up, and you will succeed. I mean, it was uh was what creed electricity was who is it held? Edison, Thomas Edison, and his fame, his quote that I love is I found 10,000 ways that don't work. That means he failed 9,999 times before he found that one way that worked. And what a what a gift that has been. And so, you know, never give up. If you believe in it, keep going. Do not give up. The way will show you the way, the way will show itself, but don't take it personally, it's just the way unfolding. And know that every no means yes to something better. Because it's true. Every time you hear a no, rejection, not this, not that, you're being saved by the universe, and it's just your path unfolding itself.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

I knew that this was the perfect chakra, the perfect goddess, the perfect theme to really bring you to life because you really are a personification of goddess Skandamatha, the warrior mother goddess Durga in her form, in her avatar, as the biological mother of the warrior son skanda. And it's a metaphor of how we ourselves become like that baby warrior skanda when we take the time to really nurture our inner child and to heal ourselves and to continue to grow and to evolve into who we are meant to be. And I feel like you are a person who has really been born and reborn over and over and over again in the fire of sacred transformation and have seen everything as an opportunity to just continue to be born again and to continue to be on this journey. And in that way, I really feel you are such a living testament to the truth that the soul just never stops growing. And it's such a privilege and such an honor to know you, to have you as a part of our circle of life community, which is open to amazing humans like yourself of all ages and all stages of life who come together with a shared interest in continuing to grow themselves spiritually and to help others. Sally, how does it feel in closing to look back at the arc of your life and see how each heartbreak, silence, and breakthrough has led you to this radiant chapter of your own hero's journey?

Sally Raymond:

Well, first of all, I can't possibly accept all those words. But what I can say is I have learned, and I keep learning over and over, that nothing is bad in and of itself. What we do about what happens is either gonna make it good or bad, and that's in our power, that's in our power. We can always we are the transformers, we are on earth to evolve, and we have to evolve with risk and with hope and with truth and integrity, and so nothing bad that happens to us, even my son's death, wasn't bad, it was what it was, it was horrible to me, but it is what it was, and it's what I did about it that has made me feel like I've done what I could to make this a to make this a positive thing, take turn a negative to a positive, and I think that's what we can do in life. It's not just an electricity, it's it's what we can do in life all the time if we so look for the opportunities and know they're there. But if you don't know they're there, you won't look and you won't find. But if you know they are and look, you'll see it. So that's all I can say is that's for me what the most important thing is is to keep looking for the the the things I can transform. You know, and and knowing that nothing is bad in and of itself, that you you hold it and allow time and your own heart and everything to have its way, and you'll find an answer coming through, and something will happen, and it will be worth the the suffering, it will be worth everything. It won't make what was wrong or bad right, but it will it'll change the dynamic entirely.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Oh, Sally, I could talk to you forever. You are just a wellspring of wisdom. I feel that the silence you've cultivated has become the expression of a very powerful voice indeed. And where do people find this powerful treasure of a book of yours, The Sun I Knew Too Late?

Sally Raymond:

It's on Amazon. It's on you can get it in any bookstore. You just order it. But Amazon is where it is. You can go to my website at Sally Araymond.com and you can get a signed copy if you want. Anyway, yeah, there's you know, it's it's available everywhere, and it's got, I think it's got 4.5 or 6 stars. It moves up to 4.7 to so it moves around a bit. I haven't checked, I don't watch it because I I mean, I you know, that's my son's gift to life. I I'm busy on other things, but it's really important, it's a really important book. It's really a valuable book, and it really will help you really well. But yes, it's on Amazon.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Amazing. Thank you so much, Sally, for such a special conversation. I'm so so grateful and honored to know you and to be able to share your voice with everyone who is meant to be inspired by it. And may you continue to just keep growing and keep thriving as the hero of your own journey.

Sally Raymond:

Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to join your group and to help myself deepen and broaden and be of more service. And you are also an incredible light, and I I I honor the the beauty and perfection of you as well, and your you know, hero's journey. You are certainly on one, and you know it, and and I love that what you're doing for people, and I am here to support you.

Ananta Ripa Ajmera:

Thank you. Thank you so so much, Sally. You're welcome. Thank you.

People on this episode

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Ananta Ripa Ajmera

Host
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Sally Raymond

Guest